Skepticule Extra Podcast #23





The Skepticule Extra Podcast #23 is out now.
SkepExtra-023-20120325
Skepticule Extra shownotes for episode 023 20120325

This is the twenty-third episode of Skepticule Extra (or the paultrio podcast).


Paul Baird
Patient and Persistent
http://patientandpersistent.blogspot.com

Paul Thompson ("Sinbad") 

The Skeptical Probe
http://skepticalprobe.blogspot.com/


Paul S. Jenkins
Notes from an Evil Burnee
http://www.evilburnee.co.uk

















      Send feedback to feedback@skepticule.co.uk, write a review oniTunes or post a comment below. There is also a Skepticule Extra Forum for further discussion of topics covered in the show (plus other topics). Follow the link to try out the forum.
      Skepticule Extra is a production of Willowsoft Communications


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      Skepticule Extra is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 2.0 UK: England & Wales License.


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      The Clergy Project



      Teresa MacBain - coming out - American Atheists Conf. 
      [March 26, 2012]



      This is a heart warming and inspiring speech from Pastor Teresa MacBain coming out as an Atheist at the American Atheists Conference in March 2012.

      There are many thousands of clergy who are trapped in a system they no longer believe in. They are forced into a life of dilemma and dissonance, preaching and perpetuating beliefs they know to be false.

      They are trapped because they have no professional skills that will give them an income outside the church.
      They stand to lose their whole social network.
      They will often be rejected and ostracised by their communities and even their own families.

      The Clergy Project is a good cause to be involved in.
      Provide the support infrastructure.. a social network.. and let them know they don't have to live a lie. Show them the escape route.

      Teresa McBain did it and what did she lose.. She lost her bigotry, her hatred and her guilt.

      Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to find just one clergyman who wants out of religion and show them how.


      Links:-
      The Clergy Project
      The Thinking Atheist Podcast (The Clergy Project)


      Skepticule Extra Podcast #21




      The Skepticule Extra Podcast #21 is out now.

      SkepExtra-021-20120212


      Featuring The Thee Pauls.














      Why we believe as we do.


      Why we believe as we do. (and the Jello Dome model)

      You can not "Choose" to believe in a thing.

      It would be absurd for a Baptist to say "Today I think I will believe in Zeus". And then stop being a Baptist and really believe in Zeus. They would simply be a Baptist saying they believe in Zeus, going through the motions but not genuinely believing. You can not change your beliefs by choice. It irritates me every time I see Christians Accusing others of "Choosing" not to believe in their particular brand and variant of God.

      Belief is caused by mental conditioning and the environment we experience every day. This conditioning causes a channeling of a person's thought processes towards a particular conclusion or world view.

      The strength of a belief or faith depends on many things, such as the duration of the conditioning stimulus, the intensity, the degree of compliance or conflict of any new stimuli with existing conditioning. If the new stimulus is strong enough or persistent enough it can cause people to change their world view.

      Let me explain how IMHO belief works. Most people can visualise this explanation and start to recognise their own conditioning and environmental stimuli. This explains how all religions, all delusion, all perception and all beliefs work.

      Visualize your sub-conscience as a huge Jello Dome.

      When you are born, this dome is smooth, it has no beliefs, no bias, no marks or impressions on it's surface from life's experiences.... a clean smooth Jello dome.

      As you experience the world through your senses, small impressions are made on the surface of the Jello.

      Imagine it like hot water being flicked, sprayed, dripped, poured etc, on the surface from thousands of different directions, velocities and distances. The hot water melts a little bit of Jello and leaves a track where the melted Jello ran down the side of the dome.

      Life is full of millions of different stimuli, experiences and circumstances. This equates to splashes of hot water coming in from all different directions and heights and angles.

      Imagine if you hear the same song over and over, This is like identical splashes of hot water  coming in repeatedly from the same direction. After a time this would leave a deeper track than songs that you only hear once. This is how you learn a song, repetition. It's how you learn a skill or the words to a play. The more you interact with that stimulus, the deeper the tracks in your mind and the easier that skill becomes.

      Habits can be explained in the same way. If you do the same thing at the same time each day, in the same way, it becomes habit. This is like a slow steady drip of hot water on our Jello dome model. After a while the track left by the drip is quite deep and it is difficult to make alternative tracks. The water will tend to flow down the path of the existing melted track. Your behavior will become more predictable, tending to following previously learned behavior. This is when a habit is hard to break. It's difficult to recondition your mind or to get the water to follow a different path.

      A Traumatic event can radically change our behaviour very quickly. This equates to the intensity of the water. Extremely hot water would represent a very intense experience. It would melt deeper into the Jello and leave a deeper impression on our Jello sub-conscience. It could be an event of great magnitude, which could be represented by a large volume of hot water leaving a deep and wide track in our dome. These experiences could be strong enough.... or the tracks could be deep enough to alter or erase previously learned  behavior/conditioning/beliefs etc.


      Religion uses all of these principles to various degrees.

      Repetition.
      The same stimulus delivered in a consistent way at regular intervals. Hymns, Prayers, the Sunday service. constant repetition of learned behaviour. religious ritual is designed to do exactly this. Even to just getting you to say "Amen" or "praise the Lord" after a given stimulus is a small part of the conditioning. Religious ritual and ceremony is simple conditioning by repetition over a period of many years.

      Traumatic experience.
      You just have to read Christian Testimonies. There are millions of people who have latched on to various belief systems in the wake of a traumatic experience. If you want to relate this to our Jello Model, It's like the Trauma has liquefied and softened a large part of our Jello dome. The slightest stimulus from any direction will result in deep tracks in the extra soft susceptible Jello surface, often completely erasing all previous conditioning.

      Skillful charismatic preachers will often try to give the victims/congregation a very intense religious experience. People leaving these churches after an intense conditioning session will exhibit signs of induced euphoria and mild hysteria.

      Jehovah's Witnesses..... The WTS tend to use continuous conditioning. This is similar to the continuous conditioning you would get in a monastery, convent or doing missionary work. JW's Live, breath, eat, sleep, fart and shit WTS doctrine all day long. The WTS have another trick too. Jehovah's Witnesses are strongly discouraged from talking to non-Jehovah's Witnesses unless they are "Witnessing". If a JW is "disfellowshipped" (kicked out), they are ostracised. You are not allowed to communicate with the reject at all. They are not to debate other religions. They are under strict guidelines of who they can communicate with and under what circumstances. In our Jello Model, this relates to excluding other stimuli. To block off random splashes that may contaminate the carefully prepared conditioning tracks laid down by the WTS.

      Other cults do this to an extreme degree and cut of all experiences other that the message being conveyed by the cult leadership. This results in gross deformation in our Jello dome. All stimulus will follow the deep tracks laid down by the intense conditioning from one single direction. In these extreme cases of fundamentalism, everything, all experiences are perceived and explained in terms of the single set of conditioning tracks. There are no other possible explanations because there are no other tracks in their Jello model.

      Everyone is subject to the conditioning we get from our experiences and our environment. I am familiar many different religions, none of them has left a deep set of tracks in my subconsciousness. I come from a scientific background, so my conditioning is towards a scientific explanation. Stimuli/experiences/splashes of hot water will tend to follow the tracks towards a scientific explanation because that's the most natural place for those splashes to run towards in my Jello model subconsciousness.

      A Fundamentalist Christian will have deeply conditioned tracks in the area of religion and supernatural beliefs. So any random experience will tend to be given a supernatural explanation in that persons mind.

      If you are conditioned towards supernatural explanations, Supernatural explanations will feel comfortable and more reasonable because that is the easiest path for your subconscious to deal with these experiences.

      Exactly the same experiences in someone who is conditioned towards a different religion will feel perfectly comfortable with a very different explanation.

      Something that appears to be obvious and self evident to one person will be totally absurd to another person.

      As it stands, this model of our subconsciousness gives no one truly objective knowledge or an objective perception of truth. Everything is distorted by our conditioning and our life experiences. The only tool we have to give us a more objective view is "Formalised Logic". It is unbiased, unemotional and unaffected by subjective thinking and personal conditioning. Very few people can set out a 100% Formalised Logical argument for complex issues such as religion because Logic often goes against our preconditioned perceptions. We don't realize we're doing it but what we believe to be logically consistent in a complex issue is almost always biased by the conditioning of our minds towards the tracks in our mind.
      If you come up against a brand new issue that you've never come across before, totally unrelated to anything you've experienced before, you will normally be neutral on the subject. The first impression will lay down the smallest of tracks in that Jello sub-conscious brain model and any subsequent information will be slightly biased in the direction of those tracks. Of course a strong piece of evidence can redirect those tracks in another direction. First impressions are often lasting impressions. 

      Think about the things you believe now, your current world view and see if you can determine why you believe as you do. What was the environment like that caused you to accept those beliefs. If you have changed you world view, ask yourself why. Was it a constant drip drip, an intense event or an event of great magnitude.

      The worst crime of all is to believe you are not affected by your conditioning and that your perceptions are 100% objective.  Only fools claim they know the absolute truth. 

      What will you do in Heaven?




      When you Christian guys go to heaven, what are you actually going to do there.

      I know "Most" Christians don't believe the "Sitting on cloud playing the harp" theory. But what will you actually do?

      Will you just live as you do now only in some paradise world? Will you spend all your time glorifying God.

      How long for?.... Eternity?

      Think about that.

      The first 100 years will indeed be paradise. The next 100 years will be pretty good too, but you may become a little restless after 200 years of nectar drinking and renewing acquaintances with long lost relatives.

      You may want to take up some new hobbies, lots of them. You have all the time in the world to become expert at everything you do.

      After the first 1000 years you will probably have done most of the things that interest you. The next 1000 years could become a little repetitive.

      10,000 years of fly fishing, listening to music, Ice Skating or doing Sudoku puzzles sounds pretty dull. In fact doing anything for 10,000 years is sure to dampen your enthusiasm for that activity.

      What about the next 10,000 years, and the next.

      After 100,000 years you should have tried just about every hobby, pastime, learned every language fluently, tasted every combination of food and drink a thousand times over.

      Lets try to imagine the first million years of eternity. Boy, would you be full of wisdom, knowledge and memories.

      what are you going to do for the next million years. and the next, and the next.

      100 million years will be just the beginning of the rest of your life.

      1 billion years... a million billion years? I would think you would have run out of things that interest you by now.

      10 thousand million billion years and you will be pretty desperate for a change of scenery.

      A Billion Gazillon years will not even scratch the surface of all the years to come, and they will come very slowly, a day at a time. Doing all the things you have already done billions of times before.

      Our solar system will have long gone by then, swallowed by the sun turning to a red giant then contracting to a white dwarf star and cooling down over the billions of years.

      In an infinite period of time you will have done everything and seen everything an infinite number of times. But you still have to do all those things again an infinite number of times and keep doing them forever.

      If we live in an open, ever expanding universe, the universe will cool down to absolute zero and die entropy death. A cold dark universe with that little oasis of paradise created specifically for you.

      Conversely if we live in a closed universe. There will be the big crunch and the next big bang.

      No doubt god will sustain your existence somehow so that you will be able to do and see an infinite number of things over and over and over and over and over for an infinite time.

      And when you have done all that, you do it again and again and again ad-infinitum.

      This is not heaven. This is Hell.


      I would be interested to hear from any Christians who can explain their perception of living for eternity. Can this be explained without changing the essence of who you are, without changing your "being". Would your very soul need to be exchanged for one that can cope with such an awful prospect of living forever.

      No one should be afraid of death, total annihilation or non-existence. 

      Being unable to die is a fate much worse than death.

      The War Against Secularism


      Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Cantabury has stated that Christians should be prepared to die for their faith in the "war against secularism"


      What...?  Why should Christians be prepared to die fighting Secularism, Who is going to kill them? Is the secular community planning an inquisition, a crusade, are we building bonfires and planting our torture stakes? Perhaps Carey is planning a Bob Jones style protest and Christians should be prepared to drink the Cool-Aid.


      Fear prophets ... and those prepared to die for the truth, for as a rule they make many others die with them, often before them, at times instead of them. 
      [Umberto Eco] 


      Lord Carey is calling on Christians to die for the faith. In a holy war against the evil, cancerous poison of Secularism.


      Exactly what is it that Carey finds "A truly terrifying prospect?" What is it that Carey believes Christians should lay down their lives to fight against?


      Well there is no Secular Gospel, no infallible, immutable, perfect, eternal, unchangeable rule book telling us which tribes need to be killed, who to stone to death or who to execute for having the wrong belief system or sexual orientation. The closest secular document I can find is the single page Humanist Manifesto. 


      Humanist Manifesto III
      1. Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.


      Carey does not want rational critical analysis. Christians must fight against such a ridiculous concept. Why? Because Truth is always made stronger by rational critical analysis. Falsehoods are exposed by critically analysing the evidence, the methods and the conclusions. Ask yourself why Carey finds critical analysis such a terrifying prospect. Why does he fear Science? After all, Science teaches us how to build aircraft, religion teaches us to fly them into office buildings.




      2. Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.


      Carey does not want Christians to distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. If reality disagrees with Christian dogma, reality must be wrong.




      3. Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.


      Imagine, treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity. Surely we should fight against such a poisonous concept. Making informed choices with responsibility... Carey insists Christians should be prepared to die fighting such evil ideas. 




      4. Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.


      A little flowery for me but what is so wrong with participating in humane ideals, purpose, joy, beauty, culture, comfort and encouragement? While the language is flowery, it is far better than the rhetoric of "fight", "war", "prepare to die" as used by Carey.




      5. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.




      Oh My, Such evil Secularism... mutual care and concern... NO, Cary wants you to die fighting against such things. He does not want the secular aspiration of a world without cruelty and violence, In his own words, he wants a war against such secular aspirations?



      6. Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.


      Should we really pay any attention to Carey when he is opposed to a fair and just distribution of nature's resources?




      7. Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.


      Carey does not want democracy and diversity he wants a Christian Theocracy where people of different beliefs are made to participate in ritual ceremonies devoted to his particular brand of religion. It doesn't matter if you are a Hindu, an Atheist, a Buddhist or a Zoroastrian, If you work in local government, you'll have to participate in Christian worship ceremonies as part of official council business. At least you would be made to do so if Carey had his way. Thankfully the Law of the Land has deemed this to be unethical in a case against Bideford Council (A town famous for it's witch trials). 








      I understand the aspirations, and have some respect for the Secular Humanist Manifesto. I think it may be an unachievable Utopia while we still have petty, bickering, divisive leaders in the seats of power, but it is an ideal worth striving for. Even if we only get halfway there, it would be worth the effort. It also has added benefits in that it is Ok to suffer a witch to live. That's right, you don't have to kill people because they have different belief systems. It is not necessary to subscribe to the concept that Genocide is a morally acceptable way to eliminate undesirables (Dt13). Women are not the property of men and they are not required to marry their rapist. There is no need to kill people because of what they choose to do with their genitals. I'll have to admit I'm somewhat confused about the Christian policy on Homosexuals. While the Churches in Uganda insist people are to be imprisoned or executed for being gay, the same Churches ordain actively gay Bishops in the USA. (Some clarification may be required). 


      I think that before Lord Carey starts pointing his judgmental finger at the Secularist ideal of cooperation, democracy, fairness and respect, he needs to take a look at:

      • The hatred between Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland.
      • The Muslims and Jews killing each other in the Middle East.
      • Muslims killing Muslims in The Middle East.
      • Christians and Muslims killing each other in Nigeria.
      • Mega-rich preachers ripping of those who can ill afford it.
      • The Catholic Church providing safe harbour for paedophiles.
      • The killing of Witch children by Fundamentalist Christian Churches.
      • The persecution of Homosexuals.
      • The withholding of medical treatment in the Church of Christian Science.
      • Convincing AIDS ridden populations they will burn in Hell if they wear a condom. 



      Sure, no one is squeaky clean in this world but before Carey starts casting stones at others, he needs to take a look in his own Theistic parlor.


      I'm lead to believe I live in a Christian country. We have a Christian Queen, A predominantly Christian Government, Christan Bishops in Parliament, Christian Churches in every village, town and city across the land, Christian education, Christian bookshops on every High Street, Christian Bill boards, posters and TV Programs. And yet, the country is broken... our prisons are full... We are constantly at war with someone meanwhile our politicians are busy delivering golden trinkets to the Pope. By anyone's standard, the Christian state has failed us.


      I have no desire to live in Carey's vision of a Totalitarian Christian Theocracy. Maybe it's time for the Theocrats to step aside and give those Secular Humanists some control..... Sorry, I forgot, we are expected to die fighting in a war against those evil Secularists. 


      Lord Carey.. You first.






      Humanist Manifesto is a trademark of the American Humanist Association-© 2003 American Humanist Association


      Some interesting information about the ethics of the Anglican Church:-

      Acupuncture for computers

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